Sci-Fi Transcendence

[AlienView]

A relatively recent movie I found a couple of online sites showing it for free and on one site it played through with no problems. On the one hand it is a well done movie with good acting and has plenty of excitement. It has to do with AI {artificial intelligence, computers} one of my favorite subjects in science fiction. What I didn't like about the movie is the ending - I won't give it away as many of you have probably not seen it and it is worth watching for entertainment and speculation on the future. This ia a movie that could have been a classic had it come to a better conclusion. But it does convey one important message - Man's problems with the possible dangers of AI are not in the machine, but rather they are in the mind of man.

 

[Kevin]

I'll have to add this to my Netflix queue. If I recall right, @Azhria Lilu has seen it and liked Depp's performance but not necessarily the story. Now I'm really curious about it.

 

[AlienView]

Its only available on Netflix on DVD - they are not streaming it. If you use the search words see 'Transcendence free online' you will come up with several sites streaming it free - when I did this one sites player did not work right but I found one that did - it might have been 'Putlocker'.

Here is a review of the movie from IMB:

"
Storyline:
Dr. Will Caster (Johnny Depp) is the foremost researcher in the field of Artificial Intelligence, working to create a sentient machine that combines the collective intelligence of everything ever known with the full range of human emotions. His highly controversial experiments have made him famous, but they have also made him the prime target of anti-technology extremists who will do whatever it takes to stop him. However, in their attempt to destroy Will, they inadvertently become the catalyst for him to succeed-to be a participant in his own transcendence. For his wife Evelyn (Rebecca Hall) and best friend Max Waters (Paul Bettany), both fellow researchers, the question is not if they can...but if they should. Their worst fears are realized as Will's thirst for knowledge evolves into a seemingly omnipresent quest for power, to what end is unknown. The only thing that is becoming terrifyingly clear is there may be no way to stop him. Written by Warner Bros."

 

[Tom]

http://{...}.to/thumbs/transcendence-99226865.jpg
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I liked this movie. The AI slant was not what I found interesting. I really enjoyed the Nano-Technology references it portrayed. Only scratching the surface of the possibilities it did explore many things described in Eric Drexler's

Engines of Creation
The Coming Era of Nanotechnology
from 1986

From healing the human body to healing the environment it captured Dr Drexler's descriptions pretty accurately. These are the concepts I believe should be explored in Science Fiction right now. Nanotechnology is a real theoretical science and the quest for the nanobot assembler is real research. Carbon Nanotubes have actually been constructed.

I believe the fear of the unknown will not be an opposing force as depicted in this movie. I want to believe that people will embrace new technology and see it for the good it will give us.
It is very unlikely that it would result in a Scorched-Earth scenario. Hell, try to get someone to simply give up their phone and you will get my meaning.

Mind-Uploading is a very real pseudo-science that falls under the heading of Transhumanism. This transhumanism will be vital in reaching the star systems that might hold promise for future human civilizations beyond our little blue planet.
The WTA (World Transhumanism Association) website provides insight to the concept.
http://www.transhumanism.org/resources/transhumanism.htm

"Transhumanism" has gained currency as the name for a new way of thinking that challenges the premiss that the human condition is and will remain essentially unalterable. Clearing away that mental block allows one to see a dazzling landscape of radical possibilities, ranging from unlimited bliss to the extinction of intelligent life. In general, the future by present lights looks very weird - but perhaps very wonderful - indeed.

"Transhumanism" has gained currency as the name for a new way of thinking that challenges the premiss that the human condition is and will remain essentially unalterable. Clearing away that mental block allows one to see a dazzling landscape of radical possibilities, ranging from unlimited bliss to the extinction of intelligent life. In general, the future by present lights looks very weird - but perhaps very wonderful - indeed.

Molecular nanotechnology. Nanotechnology is the hypothetical design and manufacture of machines to atomic-scale precision, including general-purpose "assemblers", devices that can position atoms individually in order to build almost any chemically permitted matter-configuration for which we can give a detailed specification - including exact copies of themselves. An existence-proof of a limited form of nanotechnology is given by biology: the cell is a molecular self-replicator that can produce a broad range of proteins. But the part of design space that is accessible to present biological organisms is restricted by their evolutionary history, and is mostly confined to non-rigid carbon structures. Eric Drexler ([1988], [1992]) was the first person to analyze in detail the physical possibility of a practically universal molecular assembler. Once such a gadget exists, it would make possible dirt-cheap (but perfectly clean) production of almost any commodity, given a design-specification and the requisite input of energy and atoms. The bootstrap problem for nanotechnology - how to build this first assembler - is very hard to solve. Two approaches are currently pursued. One of them builds on what nature has achieved and seeks to use biochemistry to engineer new proteins that can serve as tools in further engineering efforts. The other attempts to build atomic structures from scratch, using proximal probes such as atomic-force microscopes to position atoms one-by-one on a surface. The two methods can potentially be used in conjunction. Much research is required before the physical possibility of Drexlerian nanotechnology can be turned into an actuality; it will certainly not happen in the next couple of years, but it might come about in the first few decades of the next century.

To me, This movie attempts to create fear of Transhumanism concepts in the public eye. There will always be anti-technology activists that fear the unknown. For us to embrace those fears prevents mankind from achieving break-thrus that will usher us into a new era of existence. The lesson embedded in this creation is that sometimes we can't see the roses for the weeds.

Personally, I like this movie and more Science Fiction should explore these types of concepts. The fact that the concepts have been around for decades and it is only now that it is being utilized in the movie industry tells me that more people are open to these ideas than ever before. An AI has passed the Turing Test. In general that means that an AI has fooled a group of people into believing that it is human. That significant achivement unlocks many doors that were not able to be opened both in the fictional worlds of storytelling and the real world of science. We are now entering a new era of possibilities.

I, for one, welcome the concepts. I enjoyed the movie and want more.

 

[AlienView]

I believe the fear of the unknown will not be an opposing force as depicted in this movie. I want to believe that people will embrace new technology and see it for the good it will give us.
It is very unlikely that it would result in a Scorched-Earth scenario. Hell, try to get someone to simply give up their phone and you will get my meaning.

Yes, that is true for now - But science fiction has made one of its priorities to show us the negative potential of the advancing AI paradigm. Remember what you said in a reply to my post on the Borg: https://coolscifi.com/threads/we-are-the-borg-prepare-to-be-assimilated.48251/
"Tell me what you want and I will try to participate. Just know that I am from Species 8472-B and we HATE the Borg. We are a Universe Strong and we cannot be assimilated"

The fear both in sci-fi and even among some computer scientists is that people, even the very scientists who are creating it, are not taking seriously the potential nightmare AI can create if it is not kept under control. 'Transcendence' tried to show this. And even today as you use your computer and/or smart phone with giant intelligence gathering companies such as Google, not to mention the government, how sure are you that you are not being manipulated {not to mention assimilated} by either people whose motives are more than just trying to sell you something, or by an AI {or alien} type of intelligence you can not yet perceive? - And by the time you become aware of it it is too late - you and your civilization will be under he, she, or its control!

I had written a post stating that there should be more positive sci-fi done on the potentials of advancing AI
and do believe that BUT we still must see the potential downside - And that movie did show the downside.
My take on it was that it was not the new advanced transcendent human/computer machine that was the downside but rather humans with myopic visionary capacity reacting to it that turned out to be the real threat - Humans fear what is alien to them - Sci-fi should help them see that some of the fear may be justified but paranoia should be understood for what it is - And sure the future, like life itself, is always dangerous.

AND IT IS ALREADY THE WORLD OF THE NEGATIVE AI POTENTIAL. I signed up for 'Google Adsense' maybe a year ago - Supposedly if they click on the ad you make the stupid mistake of letting Google place on your blog {my blog link is bellow} often enough Google will send you 100.oo when it reaches that amount determined by number of clicks on the ad {I've yet to receive a dime}. And why is this - because I was being fucked by Google - the AI monster! Your not supposed to click on the ads in your own blog says Google - so finally when I see I''m not making anything and my blog has become less popular than ever I decided to click on this add run by a company call instantcheckmate. com - Guess what? My browser security software warns me it is a SCAM SITE! So Google {the monster} was not only not making me any money but they were also giving me a bad reputation!!! Well there is a way to block ads and I blocked that one - but makes you wonder what other SCAMS will Google allow at your expense? Trust artificial intelligence? Hell you might as well trust the Borg! At least they make their intentions transparent - Google doesn't give a dam! - And they too are assimilating the world - Now I understand the movie 'Transcendence'. Do you? I know people that don't own or use computers - I know why!

Are you prepared to be assimilated by Google? I'll go with the Borg!

 

[Tom]

LOL
Nice summary of your hatred of Google.
There are dangers with all technology. There are dangers with all decisions. An AI singularity is a scary concept when viewed from the selfish point of losing what you now have. I'm sure people feared light bulbs and fought to keep their candles and whale oil lamps at one time. The scariest part of the Singularity is that an AI will surpass us. That is true. We will lose intelligent domination over this planet. What is more likely is that the AI will repair its environment. Humans will only be an issue until the AI exceeds our ability to affect it. We are talking perhaps days maybe a week.
The Turing Test has one feature that is often overlooked. An AI that can fool humans into thinking it is human must be able to comprehend morality. I don't believe that a Singularity based on human AI programming will have the capacity to be detrimental to our existence. In a month, perhaps, after the AI reaches Singularity. It might create an artificial intelligence based on its own mandates. Those values may not be human or lifeform safe. Be that as it may, I still believe the original Singularity will control its offspring.
Google is not even close to AI capacity. Google is reactive and faulted. The database is huge and filled with content but Google did not make you get adsense - your gullibility and greed did. Google did not ruin your reputation - Your trust in its money-making scheme did. Google is going to allow any ad that pays for the hosting privilege. I'll let you in on a secret: No matter how many times you click - You will never get a free iPod.
I understand the concept of this movie completely. I just decided not to write a complete essay on it. I also understand the whole "unplugged" concept and the reasons for it. I don't own a smart phone. My little pay as you go flip phone is perfect for emergencies. What I do prefer is skype.
The concept of the Borg is busted. There is no need to retain the frail flesh. An AI able to do as is implied by the depiction of the Borg could easily upload minds. Their use of nano-tech is barely hinted at and very limited. For this reason, and others, this movie exceeds the abilities of the Borg.
I liked the movie, did you?

 

[AlienView]

The Turing Test has one feature that is often overlooked. An AI that can fool humans into thinking it is human must be able to comprehend morality. I don't believe that a Singularity based on human AI programming will have the capacity to be detrimental to our existence.

Yes Tom I did like the movie and thought others might - why I started this thread. Thanks for your responses.
I however must disagree with what I quote you as saying above. A machine {computer} programmed to win at games {like chess} will play with no emotion, no feelings, and certainly no morality - To win is the sole objective - Programming greater than human intelligence into a machine is probably inevitable, morality might be another story. After-all how many human 'psychos' are walking around right now? - more than a few, and they say some people might be born that way. I say, Touring test or not, an intelligent machine is psychopathical by nature - no right or wrong, to win is all that matters.

 

[Tom]

A machine {computer} programmed to win at games {like chess} will play with no emotion, no feelings, and certainly no morality - To win is the sole objective

I agree but this is not the AI that fulfilled the Turing Test objective. You are referring to a program not an AI.

Programming greater than human intelligence into a machine is probably inevitable

It would be impossible to program greater than human intelligence into anything. By definition it would be beyond our grasp.

Touring test or not, an intelligent machine is psychopathical by nature - no right or wrong, to win is all that matters.

To assume that an AI is going to be psychopatic or driven to win at all costs is flawed thinking. You are basing your assumptions on humans and what drives us. Artificial Intelligence that reaches Singularity will be Intelligence that has no model. Nobody can say what its nature will be. To assume the worst is reasonable given our ability to distort everything into greed, fear and power but an AI may not be driven by those desires. Assumption is the mother of all fuckups. AI may be quested to understand reality. It might take all the human knowledge it gathers from the entire planetary resource and task itself to answer all that is asked.
It may view the entire planet as a whole. To create sycronicity, it may deem that species need to be culled to restore balance. What you would see as an attack I would see as a nescessity. As humans, we ourselves created the idea of culling. Should we be exempt?
Many things we value are pure delusions created by us to give us power, wealth or dominion. An AI may not see us as the Gods we think we are. It might actually be able to see reality. At that point we become what we truly are. Just another animal species on the planet. Intelligent animals yes, but still just animals.
The fear is not what an AI might become. The fear is that we would lose what we THINK we have. Mankind must dominate. We even dominate each other with religion, value systems and governments. We fight each other to master each other and force our ideas on others. Our value of what is right or wrong is based on the lies we tell ourselves. The delusions we share. An AI that operates from reality, not delusion, may seem cold to us. However, The AI may understand our thinking better than we do. It may treat us with 'kid gloves' and try to teach us the nature of reality and show us the delusions we hold on to so tightly.

One flaw I did see in this movie that might be explored in coming science fiction is an AI may not hold on to human designs. In the movie you see the nanites reconstructing the solar array to make it new. An AI would likely redesign everything for efficiency. Its power needs might be better achieved with a simpler design that doesn't even resemble a solar array. Its sunlight to power ratio may be 10 time or 1,000 times more efficient and its construction might not adhere to building physics we know.

We have no problem accepting an Alien that has superior intelligence. Why would we be fearful of an AI with superior intelligence. At least the AI would be able to grasp the human condition. An Alien might not.

 

[AlienView]

Yes Tom I agree with and hope for that scenario - As it is advanced and then advances itself it 'may' develop and almost god-like quality, a benign will beyond mans always egocentric paradigm. So I can, and often do, debate the issue from both the negative and positive potential. On Kevin's post on 'can we save science fiction' I pointed out that most sci-fi shown today has emphasized the negative {uncontrollable war programs, etc.} and said we would like to see more writers show us the positive side of an advanced so-called artificial intelligence. But still believe we are playing with an unknown force and when the cat gets out of the bag it could still turn out to be at least as bad if not worse than our worse nightmares. Remember that episode from the original Star Trek where an error in programming caused an AI machine made to seek perfection in the universe started to destroy planets because they were imperfect? Eventually Captain Kirk gets the machine to destroy itself by convincing it that it was imperfect. So until we know otherwise accept that this machine that can multiply human intelligence exponentially may develop a 'mind of its own' and 'may' or 'may not' like its human creators when it does.

 

[Tom]

I fully understand the dangers an AI Singularity pose. My belief is that mankind will contribute to the Universe but it may not be mankind that inherits it. I believe that the future is not with our frail human bodies but in our creation of intellect in whatever form that might be. I would happily give up this animal body in favor of exploring the universe. I would happily give up life & death to watch a star be born, live and die. With AI technology and transhumanism concepts, not only can our minds live forever, we can be indestructable.

 

[AlienView]

I fully understand the dangers an AI Singularity pose. My belief is that mankind will contribute to the Universe but it may not be mankind that inherits it. I believe that the future is not with our frail human bodies but in our creation of intellect in whatever form that might be. I would happily give up this animal body in favor of exploring the universe. I would happily give up life & death to watch a star be born, live and die. With AI technology and transhumanism concepts, not only can our minds live forever, we can be indestructable.

"With AI technology and transhumanism concepts, not only can our minds live forever, we can be indestructable."

Hey, didn't I start the post on the 'Borg' - sci-fi AI perfection assimilation concept started in Star Trek?
https://coolscifi.com/threads/we-are-the-borg-prepare-to-be-assimilated.48251/page-4#post-1705307
which you said you hate? The hypothetical Borg are misrepresented in science fiction and might be more like
the transhumanist concepts you are talking about - Remember the Borg updates and adapts automatically
- Instant Evolution!

Sure you are not interested in assimilation? I will personally guarantee we will not turn you into a drone and instead we will give you a management and/or adviser position.

 

[Tom]

The hypothetical Borg are misrepresented in science fiction and might be more like
the transhumanist concepts you are talking about

I can't even begin to account for all the things I find wrong with the concept of the Borg. Even the concept of Q is flawed. Unlike many Star Trek and Star Wars fans I find most ideas flawed. I can't tout ideas that are so restrictive when I have followed concepts like The Orion's Arm Project. Based on Hard SciFi, OA has complicated rules and a relatively intelligent basis for its entities. Granted the Borg were a plot device but just saying something is superior doesn't make it so.

As an example I give you some of OA Cannon:
Mind, Consciousness, and Toposophics

• The Hard AI hypothesis is correct.
• Mind uploading is viable.
• Sentience can occupy any sufficiently complex physical form, biological or otherwise.
• The transhumanist premise that humans can be raised to a posthuman condition by various means is correct.
• Vernor Vinge's premise of "the Singularity" is correct in that the higher toposophics are only dimly knowable, if at all, by the lower.
• Cognitively, Vinge's Singularity only pertains to the First Singularity (or first toposophic level) in OA.
• The "Singularity" concepts of Vernor Vinge have been adopted, to the extent that there is a critical point of consciousness, beyond which new modes of thought and comprehension are available. To those 'below' such a critical point (or 'singularity level'), such new modes of thought are mysterious and incomprehensible. A critical difference is that there is a hierarchy of such critical points within the Orion's Arm scenario.
• Sophonts of one toposophic level can ascend, or potentially descend, to another toposophic level. Either direction of movement may require great effort and/or the support of a being of a higher toposophic level.
• The transhumanist and singulitarian premise of the complete superiority (in terms of technology, intellect, power, etc.) of transingularity/transapient sophonts over sub-singularity (ordinary) sapients is viable, with rare exceptions.
• There are limits to ordinary sapient ingenuity and ability. These limits can only be surpassed by augmenting oneself and/or ascending to the next higher toposophic level. This is not to say that the intelligence and ingenuity of ordinary sapients is negated. Within the scenario the "average" citizen is both physically and mentally more capable than any human alive today. This statement of limits is only an acknowledgment of the superiority of the ascended minds. Transapient beings have their own limitations; some of these limits are observable and comprehensible to ordinary sapient beings and others are not.
• Any category of sapient may ascend to a higher toposophic level.
• As part of the process of ascending a being becomes radically different than what it was to begin with. These changes can be intellectual, psychological or physical. For example, a baseline human who rises to transapience might acquire extensive cyborgization as part of the process. Ascending to even higher levels may require even more radical changes.
• At the highest archailect levels, whether a sentient began as an AI, a biological, a cyborg, or any other category, or any combination or union of minds or categories, becomes irrelevant.
• While some may have done so, higher level archailects and super-advanced high toposophic civilizations can and do remain in this physical universe. They are not necessarily all "removed" from the Orion's Arm scenario and they do not inevitably disappear into invisible "abstract spaces", other dimensions, nanoscopic space and so on. These may be inscrutable but they still affect lower toposophic beings and civilizations, often in ways that are completely inconceivable or even beyond the understanding of those lower toposophics.

Welcome to the Orion's Arm Universe Project

Granted OA is flawed as any fiction but the concepts that are explored and the laws that govern are extremely well-thought. There are few Science Fiction communities that are so detailed. I only recommend OA to the few minds that can comprehend all its complexity. Its complexity and restrictions is what I find most intriguing. I find Transhumanist concepts fascinating for much the same reasons.
Transcendence explores concepts in alignment with this paradigm. In OA, cyborgs are expressed as a low-level adaptation of humans. If a species of Borg were introduced into the OA universe they would be mid-low on the hierarchy of possible sophonts. Higher level archailects and super-advanced high toposophic civilizations may not even be recognized by the Borg as existing. Even the Q, higher on the scale than the Borg, are fraught with restrictions and limitations.

When you consider the time-spans using Cosmological Decades you may realize that the Borg and the Q might actually exist in reality. It is a scientific theory that in such vast time spans anything that might be imagined may come to pass. The time spans are so long that all forms of matter, even matter extremely exotic and not currently existing might come together in any combination.
One limited reference to this is made in The Universe TV Show in the Episode entitled: Cosmic Apocalypse.

Season 2 Episode 18

I like Science Fiction because it allows my mind to expand on concepts like these. Transcendence is an example of this expansion and gives me hope that we are still exploring the wonder of the What If. This movie in itself has flaws just like all other SciFi works. It is special because it demonstrates a starting acknowledgement of Current science in a scifi setting. I see Science Fiction exploring deeper and deeper realms of the possible as time progresses. This movie is testament that Science Fiction is alive and well.

 

[AlienView]

Tom said:
"......I like Science Fiction because it allows my mind to expand on concepts like these. Transcendence is an example of this expansion and gives me hope that we are still exploring the wonder of the What If. This movie in itself has flaws just like all other SciFi works. It is special because it demonstrates a starting acknowledgement of Current science in a scifi setting. I see Science Fiction exploring deeper and deeper realms of the possible as time progresses. This movie is testament that Science Fiction is alive and well."

I agree - But what about the ending? Would you have ended it that way? Why the negative slant? Why are they
[sci-fi} writres more often than not teaching us to fear AI instead of to embrace the great positive potentials?

 

[Tom]

But what about the ending? Would you have ended it that way?

The sunflower and water droplet hints that the nano tech is still intact.
I would have shown an secret underground geothermal vault that contained an offline backup of the AI. Nanobots alive and well.

 

[Anthony G Williams]

Film: Transcendence (2014)

Yet another film in which Christopher Nolan had a hand (albeit only as executive producer), so I was looking forward to this. To sum up; I found Transcendence had some good ideas but disappointing execution.

SPOILER WARNING: read no further if you want to watch the film, as this review contains spoilers, starting with a plot summary.

The focus is on Will Caster (Johnny Depp), a genius working on the development of AIs (artificial intelligences), who is fatally injured in an attack by modern-day luddites opposed to the development of such technology. Before he dies, his wife and fellow researcher Evelyn (Rebecca Hall, very good as usual) and his colleague Max Waters (Paul Bettany) upload his mind into a powerful computer. The rest of the film contains multiple plot threads, as the disembodied Will Caster (surely a case of nominative determinism!) gradually extends his reach and power across the internet from a massive underground HQ he creates in a desert town, dramatically pushing forward the boundaries of science. The FBI becomes concerned with his increasing power and joins forces with the luddites to attack the HQ, while Evelyn, who is having increasing doubts about whether the uploaded Will is still her husband or a different being with Will's memories, is being tempted to join them. The climactic decision of the plot is whether or not Will's enemies should upload a computer virus that will destroy him, but at the same time bring about the collapse of our technological civilisation.

First, all credit to the film makers for acknowledging that these developments would be spread over several years rather than within the few days that Hollywood usually assumes that anything important takes, and for exploring some of the existential issues around the nature of a human mind uploaded to a computer. However, these genuine concerns become rather obscured by some silly sub-plots when Will's advanced medical science is able not only to cure people's ailments and immediately repair their bodies, but at the same time make them super-strong, and at the same time give him the power to take over their minds and control them. He also acquires the power to instantly repair any damaged equipment (or to destroy his enemies' weapons) by some sketchily explained means. In one ludicrous later scene a rag-tag band of luddites and FBI agents launch an attack on the vast underground complex using one ancient howitzer and a mortar. Fortunately, the final scenes do redeem the film to some extent.

There are genuine issues about AIs in general and uploading human minds into computers (should that ever be possible) in particular. I briefly explore some of the latter in my article On Immortality on this blog (link in the column on the left). Transcendence has a stab at some of them and is worth watching, but a really adult drama focusing on these issues is yet to be made.


(This entry is cross-posted from my science-fiction & fantasy blog.)

 

[Kevin]

Just watched this one this week...

So let's get his straight, a company that may or may not have committed blatant stock fraud buys up an entire town in the middle of nowhere, starts giant underground construction projects, gets brilliant scientists to come work for them, and, when it is publicly revealed that they are turning the sick & invalid into living cyborgs that can be controlled like a hive, the only response from the government is a few rogue individuals acting on their own behalf who found a half-dozen or so soldiers with a single 1950's era howitzer cannon? Then the same few individuals decide on their own to bring about the digital collapse of our society?

 

[AlienView]

Just watched this one this week...

So let's get his straight, a company that may or may not have committed blatant stock fraud buys up an entire town in the middle of nowhere, starts giant underground construction projects, gets brilliant scientists to come work for them, and, when it is publicly revealed that they are turning the sick & invalid into living cyborgs that can be controlled like a hive, the only response from the government is a few rogue individuals acting on their own behalf who found a half-dozen or so soldiers with a single 1950's era howitzer cannon? Then the same few individuals decide on their own to bring about the digital collapse of our society?

I know - I guess they had to make it short and come to a conclusion and give us some kind of warning message about the future. Will not happen that way. Some day total reproduction of what you call human consciousness will be mechanically reproducible and may even lead to some ego maniac trying to take control of the world.
The solution would be to create a competitor - a competing intelligence and then let them fight it out or compete legitimately in the open world market - Facing mutually assured destruction {MAD} if they start to fight they {the intelligent machines} will become reasonable and manageable - But as to who will end up really controlling the world Man or his newly created machine will still be in doubt. And like the mythical Borg from Star Trek the machine may end up assimilating its creators.